I hosted a booth at the Distil show in London last month where buyers from around the world come to look at what's new in the world of spirits. We presented Mata Hari as well as the range of other Alt Wiener Schnapsmuseum (aka Fischer Schnaps) products including Montmartre and Mystique. I ran into George Rowley whom I met at the U.S. Drinks Conference last year and who claims (and rightly deserves) credit for the renaissance of Absinthe in the U.K. and Europe. George put on a very informative seminar at Distil on Absinthe featuring (perhaps a bit too much focus on) La Fee Absinthes. And what I realized was twofold. One, most people even in the industry don't have much of a clue about Absinthe, what is "real", what are the different styles, alcohol levels, history, etc. And second, those that are informed tend to bring a biased point of view to the party. Certainly understandable...I'll be the first to say I'm biased as well. But that bias does tend to color (pardon the pun) how they view the subject. And the informed types fall into two basic categories as well: Purists who hold to a conservative, one might even say reactionary, perspective, and those with a contemporary point of view...sort of "that was then, this is now."

I believe that nobody is "right"...at the end of the day, Absinthe is nothing more than an alcoholic beverage with a colorful history. So the whole issue of what is "real" Absinthe is analogous to the Martini. When first created it was a mix of gin and vermouth. But by the 1970's the Martini had morphed into a vodka-based cocktail. And now we have appletini's, chocotini's and more variations of flavors and ingredients. So you can ask the authentic question here as well…Are they real martinis? To the purist, perhaps no. But to the consumer who orders them...most definitively YES! As Tony Abou-Ganim and Dale DeGroff mentioned in a seminar I went to recently...if it's served in a martini glass (more properly called a cocktail glass), then it's a Martini...no matter what's in it…that's the way its perceived by consumers, so therefore that's the reality.

In fact, take the argument one step further. Historically vodka used to be a very rough spirit so it was traditionally flavored with something to cover up the roughness...buffalograss in Poland, Caraway seed in Scandinavia. Then it ultimately evolved into the spirit we know today as defined by the TTB as "neutral spirits so distilled or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste or color." Now all the manufacturers are becoming ever more innovative with ever more esoteric flavors and combinations. So, the question might also be asked..."Is flavored vodka authentic ?"

To the distributor who asked us to find him an "authentic" absinthe, to him the word meant that it had some historical roots. We did explain that it was a different style than the more popular French style, but was legitimately old...we had the 1881 recipe to document that.

The bottom line is as suppliers and marketers of spirits we are in business to sell stuff. If we sell stuff consumers like, we will sell more than the stuff they don't like so much. And consumers like the Bohemian style. While WS members may feel that making cocktails with Absinthe is wrong, the reality is, that's what's going to happen in the marketplace. We're already seeing it with A Bomb's, mixed with Red Bull etc. Granted that's not the authentic way to drink Absinthe, but it is what the market wants. And at the end of the day, marketing is all about responding to consumers needs and wants.

Not really. It's analagous to what makes Scotch Scotch or Tequila Tequila.

The martini is a cocktail: absinthe is a liquor.

If someone makes a liquor out of distilled molasses and labels it Tequila, does that make it Tequila? No, because Tequila must be made from certain ingredients, including blue agave.

There's still a debate over what makes an absinthe able to be called 'authentic or traditional'. So far, the broad consensus is that it should be a distilled liquor, not pre-sweetened, include at least anise and wormwood, and be predominantly anise flavored. There's still a lot of debate over some of the smaller issues such as coloration, but there's never going to be a full consensus. At least I don't believe so.

I liken absinthe that doesn't taste like anise to zima. Zima was mainly invented in order to bring in a certain demographic who hated the taste of beer, but wanted to drink something with the same alcoholic strength. They made something that did that, but it couldn't be called beer. Absinthe that doesn't taste like anise is basically made to profit from the hype that absinthe's reputation has created.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not against the evolution of a beverage, but I'm against immitators. For example, Montmartre adds cinnamon and St. George adds basil and tarragon. I've recently tasted a blanche with violettes. I enjoyed them all. Purists might condemn them, but I appreciate them as 'twists' on a traditional recipe since they still have the dominant flavor of anise.

Again, I'm not against Mata Hari itself. Since I haven't yet tried the new formula, I can't judge. I'm also really looking forward to meeting with you during the TotC to discuss this further. I like 'spirited' debates.

At the end of the day, I hope we aspire to more than what marketing gives us. Just because someone labels us purists for insisting on what a Martini or absinthe should be does not make us wrong. Personally, I think your analogy of the Martini only makes a strong case for establishing a historical and legal definition of absinthe. I would prefer my historical absinthe not turn into a choco-fuggin-tini.

But then, maybe I'm just a purist that doesn't give a rat's ass what marketing thinks.

I really don't care if they have 1,000 Bohemian style absinths on the U.S. market. Just as long as we have French and Swiss absinthes too. Let the frat boi's set themselves on fire. That makes for an exciting Saturday night. I just want the good stuff on the shelf so that I can buy it, and enjoy it without having to smuggle it in myself.

Is that too much to ask?

Your tired arguments that I've seen a hundred times before really irritate me. Maybe your product is fine, maybe not. I don't really care and I'm not going to respond to that at this time. But your reasoning pisses me off.


The difference is that absinthe hasn't evolved and changed over time in the public eye. It was around, then wasn't (except for almost unknown Absentas) and then was again, this time in an entirely unrelated form with absolutely zero basis for its having the name Absinthe whatsoever. This is because the people making it didn't have the slightest clue what absinthe was and just threw some shit together and marketed it based on pathetically stupid ideas.


Then make whisky or gin and sell it as absinthe since nomenclature is utterly meaningless. Let's rename everything everything else. Let's abandon the concept of absinthe because time has allowed unscrupulous jerkoffs to muddy it. They got there first, so real absinthe loses. Right?


We need to know more about the recipe. Its existence as words on a piece of paper is worthless as some sort of historical precedent. That somebody wrote it down a long time ago doesn't mean anything. Was it produced and sold by a company? If so, then for how long? Was it alone in a market like today's where anyone can call anything absinthe, or were there other products blazing the same trail?


The standard mercenary defense. Few people drink bohemian style absinthe for taste. They try it because they think it's a drug, mostly because that's how it's almost always advertised. Most realise it's not after drinking it and never buy it again, letting their nearly full bottles languish for however long. Others convince themselves they're tripping and are dumb repeat customers, completely happy to buy disgusting, cheaply made crap for exorbitant prices.


That's the problem with coming here and lecturing us on our turf when you obviously don't have the remotest clue what we're about. Absinthe cocktails totally have historical precedent and many recipes are on the main website. To go further, Hiram's absinthe Marteau Verte Classique is made specifically to be able to work well in cocktails as well as with the more typical preparation.

As you can see, we are all passionate about the topic. Don't let that get in the way. This can be a great thread.

I hate seeing first time absinth tasters doing flaming shots of Czechsinth, because like Peridot said, most of the time, that is also their last taste. Whereas, most of us tasted the real thing and enjoyed it so much that is is our "drink of choice." It is the marketing of it as a drug that causes this. Nowadays, most folks think that the Czechsinth is the real absinthe and they don't know that they have been misled by marketing guys with no morals.

Hey now.

There is something else going on here in the states too. That is the fact that the folks that sell absinthe in their stores have no idea what it is, how to prepare it or what is fake and what is true. Have had store owners where I purchase absinthe ask me if it is drank by the shot or mixed with coke or any mixer. When I tell them how true absinthe is prepared they get a blank look on their face and say hmmm, that takes too much time, fact is they really don't give a damn as long as it sells. I tell ya trying to educate these bayou folks about absinthe is frustrating. Even offered a bar owner to demonstrate for free and furnish the absinthe and they said they were afraid someone might get harmed can ya believe it. I have quit trying ,wife and I just sit in the woods and enjoy the green and to hell with it.

Exactly my feelings. I am far from a Historically Correct Purist by any measure but one must know one's history regardless of how one chooses to apply it. While I feel no need to run my show like Retro, I am glad he and others are doing it (and doing a much better job than I would). While my Decor is far from Belle Epoque that in no way means I am too cool for the slow drip, or the cool glasses or whatever. Things are done a certain way for a reason.




What that man said.

I think with Absinthe in it's infancy here in the US it's more or less a Marketers open playing field. I've read predictions from pundits, purists and speculators that take stands that are polar opposites.

Some feel Absinthe will rival Vodka as Americans next big "new drink" others feel after the initial thrill of tasting the infamous, once banned Liquor Absinthe will then fall by the wayside, as in the famous lyrics by B.B King ~ the thrill is gone.

Anything at this point has to be merely speculation at best. I think the overwhelming number of web sites that blatantly promote Absinthe as a drug have done serious damage to the true nature of the spirit itself. I think to over come this hurdle consumers will need to be educated as to what to expect, I see a little of that in the general media but it's still a grass roots effort. People like Hiram and T.A Breaux are doing their best to dispel myths and create a clear understanding of what Absinthe is and what it isn't.


Packaging and Advertising are key essentials in driving the sales of anything. But you can't create a market if the demand doesn't exist. Regardless of deep pocket budgets all the advertising/marketing most tried and true techniques will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes of there isn't an inherit demand for your cauliflower flavored potato chips.

We know people like potato chips, they've been defined on a broad scale of offerings to appease most anyone's taste - providing that consumer likes potato chips in the first place. But you simply can't create a market where one doesn't exist - and a sudden surge of curiosity based demand does not a market make.

Outside this forum Absinthe seems lost in it's very definition - and even more so by consumers. Few folks at the forefront of liquor sales i.e.; Liquor Store owners, Bartenders, club and restaurant owners are at a loss to even explain to the consumer what Absinthe really is and what to expect. Some may see this as unfortunate but I would counter and say it's only just beginning. The real responsibility rests with the producers of Absinthe and the integrity of the product.

Add to that savvy marketing that breaks away from the hyped up notorious legends and does the often impossible which is to inform the consumer and entice them at the same time. My hope as one of those consumers is that we'll begin to see more high quality Absinthe on American shelves. With packaging devoid of false claims and ridiculous labels.

Unless of course the core demographic of twenty something's looking for a new high remains the primary target group. As with most any product no doubt there will be an eventual shake out. Either Absinthe will claim it's rightful place as yet another viable option for the drinking public with a taste for it's varied nuances and a respectful understanding of what exactly is in their glass. Or it'll become just one more oddity along the lines of unusual flavored liqueurs and the ocean of curious bottles of vague spirits that provide at best filler between the bottles of known and established spirits.


Peter

I tend to try to express my thoughts on subjects like this in analogies, which sometimes work but are often lame.

Here I think of “the Blues”. What is authentic blues? In its most basic form, the music is extremely easy to play, and any second-year guitar student can play the right chords. The elements that one might site as defining blues can be fused with elements of other styles, and be stretched so far out of shape that most people wouldn’t recognize it as blues.

So what makes it blues? Is it the thirds in the chords? Is it the lyrics and the life they speak of? What happens when a sheltered college kid gets on stage and sings about not being able to get his Bluetooth phone to sync with his computer? Can it still be the blues?

And who cares? And why? Purists will say that the form degrades into nothing as the boundaries are stretched past tradition. Others will say that art is a living thing and that stagnation leads to death. It’s also true that many people that first become attracted to modern blues artists will be bitten by the bug and begin digging deeper, turning up with Robert Johnson and Leadbelly.

Is St. George absinthe? That can be debated ad infinitum. Hill’s? Few here would argue yes to that one. I can imagine newcomers being fond of the St. George and digging deeper into the absinthe world. Hard to imagine that happening with Hill’s, but you never know.

I’ve drawn no conclusions here, save maybe that I tend towards leniency with regards to defining absinthe, and I’m sympathetic to some of the original poster’s points. That said, I also worry that while absinthe awareness is still in its infancy worldwide, people will drink a glass of Hill’s and, because it says “absinth” on the label, will conclude that absinthe sucks. I’ve seen that happen often, and had to fight to overcome their reluctance to try absinthe again after an experience like that.

Shit. Six paragraphs and I’ve added exactly nothing to the discussion.

Historically, vodka used to be one of the smoothest and mildest spirits and there is no evidence that any roughness (maybe in case of moonshine I daresay) had to be covered up. Generally, potatoes and rye were the main ingredients of the mash and after third run and little water they were considered rather smooth and mild. There was a case with Italian rosoglios, that due to its raw taste wine spirits were flavoured with herbal oils (notably rose oil), but rosoglios were sweetened and of lower alcohol than flavoured vodkas.

Flavoured vodka has evolved in the meantime as a spirit of its own, I am not familiar with Scandinavians' usage of caraway but I believe it has been for the exactly the same reason as it was with Polish "okowita" that had been used as a base for the very first Żubrówka in the heyday. The first flavoured vodkas appeared in Europe quite early: Poland (16th century), Ukraine (16th-17th century) and Russia (17th century) and were kind of alternative for clear vodka distillates for those who demanded a more sophisticated taste and required a spirit to accompany the meal. Hence, flavoured vodka is authentic. Moreover, Martini in the first place is a famous vermouth brand

Steve, you couldn't have made my point better if you tried, when you wrote this in your blog:



On Identity
When anything is absinthe, nothing is absinthe. Absinthe becomes just a marketing vehicle. It used to be that someone came up with a product—a real, sincere product—and then hired guys to figure out how to sell it. Now someone comes up with a "brand" and then tries to fulfill it by creating whatever product they can spin to fit the brand. Absinthe seems to be easy because no one knows anything about absinthe and their expectations are easily manipulated.

Well, almost no one.

Without an established identity, virtually anything can be, and is, marketed as "absinthe." This is very attractive and convenient for marketers, but I think it's unfair to consumers who are clearly expecting the absinthe of legend. It's also unfair to the producers who go to the expense, research and effort to produce an authentic product.

People want to drink "Martinis" because they sound swank; but they don't like gin, so let's call something else a Martini. But that doesn't make it really a Martini. This is just pandering to the ignorance of the public for profit.

Many people want to be able to say they're drinking absinthe because it sounds naughty and hip and now, trendy. So if they don't like anise, are we supposed to accept the destruction of the actual reality behind that romance and myth, just in order to sell more? So people can point to a meaningless label and pretend they're drinking absinthe when they're not?

I believe it's completely irresponsible to hijack the idea of absinthe and then sell a different product entirely, just because the consumer doesn't know any better (nor do the producers or marketers in many cases). If this marketing also results in the destruction of a historically-attested category of spirit because of the systematic and well-funded misinformation, it's not only irresponsible, it's unscrupulous and in my opinion, wrong.

It's a New World
Don't think that I'm opposed to innovation—I'm the guy that used celery seed in his first commercial absinthe; and folks here will tell you that I'm among the most liberal when it comes to questions of what is or isn't absinthe.

We're not talking about whether Fujis or Jonagolds are real apples because they're modern hybrids, we're talking about trying to sell a tomato as an apple. After all, they're both pretty much the same shape, same colors and are both fruit. And weren't tomatoes called "love apples"? (a 17th century marketing coup)

Dale Sklar, the owner of the Hapsburg and Trenet brands, takes the position of many modern would-be absinthe producers:

"In reality, probably no one knows what absinthe tasted like back in France in 1916, as even the best preserved samples remaining must have changed over the years, and what we taste today would have looked and tasted different from when it was made 90 years ago."

The Absente web site says:

"We are not sure what Absinthe tasted like in 1915, but our Absente does taste less bitter than some Absinthe brands sold in Europe today."

I must respectfully disagree with Dale and the Absente copy writer. In reality, many of us know pretty much exactly what it tasted like.

Like a good number of the members here, I've drunk some exemplary absinthes from the turn of the century—Pernod Fils, Edouard Pernod, Berger—and while age may have mellowed and improved them, they're quite well preserved and full of rich anise and wormwood flavor. Ninety years of aging won't produce an anise flavor where there was none. I've also drunk—and distilled—absinthe made precisely according to 19th century recipes. When done properly, the result is virtually the same as pre-ban.

I believe it was you who said, about a different absinthe: "we were quite surprised at the dominance of licorice in the flavor profile. . . I think we’re going to find better acceptance of the authentic “Bohemian” style."

There is no historic evidence of any "Bohemian style" absinthe before the late 1990s, or in fact any absinthe of the style now called "Bohemian." This is a modern marketing concept, confused further by the use of the term "Bohemian" for the 19th century French sub-cultural movement, which was unrelated to the geographical region.

Most of what is being referred to commonly as Bohemian style absinthe is actually more like wormwood bitters or schnapps, re-branded with the name of "absinthe" with the intent to occupy that niche.

You can't make absinthe just by adding wormwood to whatever you fancy. There exist a great number of spirits and bitters which traditionally contain absinthium wormwood: besk, aquavit, piołunówka, etc. Malört, legal in the states for years, is loaded with absinthium and very, very bitter. None of these claim the heritage of absinthe, the specific beverage which gained notoriety—deserved or otherwise—in Belle Époque France.

Absinthe was always an anise drink. Hundreds of contemporary accounts attest that this was always the case. There are also 19th century distiller's manuals which give many detailed recipes and protocols. The two ingredients that are in every single recipe are absinthium wormwood and anise. A huge majority of the remainder also contain sweet fennel. The expected flavor of absinthe is affirmed when we understand that pastis was created later to fill the gap left by the ban of absinthe in 1915. Later all anise beverages were banned because they were abused to hide illegal absinthe. Anise and absinthe are inextricably linked.

On Mixability
"It’s inherently more mixable because it doesn’t hit you in the nose with a 2 x 4 of licorice flavor."

I've been reading this a lot lately about mixability. Absinthe—real absinthe—is eminently mixable, as hundreds of pre-ban era cocktail recipes demonstrate. In these cocktails, the expected flavor component that the drink was built on was that of anise; not mint, sage, mastic or eucalyptus.

Rather than change the spirit so substantially as to make it a different product, I believe it would be better to educate bartenders as to it's best use in cocktails. Master a few of the classics, see how it behaves with other spirits, and innovate from there.

The easiest solution is simply to use less. That may not seem like a good thing at first, business-wise, but I believe if you offer an authentic product that will have the support of the very knowledgeable community of absinthe aficionados, and if you teach proper service and usage, people will like it and feel more confident in their choices.

A Sazerac calls for an absinthe rinse, not a half ounce, not a quarter ounce or even a teaspoon. Absinthe in that amount with three ounces of rye doesn't give a recognizable "licorice" flavor, but rounds out the rye, Peychaud's and lemon flavors nicely and really ties the drink together.


Consistent Character
Mixability is indeed an issue, but unfortunately among the huge array of Bohemian style absinthes on the market, there is no common denominator; they mostly taste completely different. I don't believe this is good for mixability. If a bartender creates a recipe that calls for absinthe and he always uses Hill's, how will that cocktail perform with Staroplzenecky? King of Spirits? Mata Hari? Pernod? Jade?

The problem is that most of the "heavy anise" absinthes people criticize are not properly made in the first place. They have no subtlety and in most cases use only star anise, or worse, star anise oil, instead of green aniseed, as is traditional. This is the source for the confectionery anise flavor that everyone associates with black licorice. These improperly-made absinthes are then cited as examples of why people won't go for the heavy licorice taste. A properly made traditional absinthe is balanced.

Don't Take It So Seriously, It's Only Booze.
The reason for the passion on this topic—among drinkers as well as producers—is that so few people know anything about absinthe that we may well lose the category entirely. Producing an anise-free absinthe is like producing an anise-free ouzo or a juniper-free gin, except that with gin and ouzo, their character is so well known—and federally controlled—that it's unlikely that the revised versions could eclipse the proper ones.

Despite having been relegated to obscurity, absinthe isn't a nebulous novelty; it has a historically-attested character. It wasn't just wormwood with whatever other random herbs the maker fancied; it had an expected flavor and character. It was a wormwood flavored anise spirit. It was, and is, an anise spirit like ouzo, raki, arak and others.

I imagine that if for some reason there were suddenly a huge interest in all things Greek, and partying with ouzo and mezes became highly romanticized (maybe a Zorba re-make would kick it off?), there would be a lot of people who would want to join that party, but who disliked anise. Do we re-invent ouzo for that market? Do we re-invent gin for juniper-haters?

Most of the makers of truly traditional absinthe are craftsmen who came to the industry through a love and knowledge of the spirit. They are small businesses and have limited production and distribution, but they are the ones keeping the authentic spirit alive.

On the other hand, you have marketing companies which embrace what they see as an obvious goldmine—nothing wrong with that—but who are less concerned, or perhaps just less informed, about the true historic nature of the spirit. Here are deeper pockets, mass production capacity and a worldwide distribution network.

Epilogue
At the end of the day, you're selling an idea. It seems to me that it might be easier and cheaper to sell one you can back up. You can either promote the myth that there's such a thing possible as an anise-free absinthe, or you can earn the support of the very knowledgeable absinthe experts in the world and tell people that anise is sexy.

Yeah, I know, a modicum of civility is certainly a good thing.

But the bottom line is, he's right.

My problem with this kind of thinking is that the customer is not always right; in this case they have been systematically misled. They have been misled into believing a myth of absinthe by temperance groups, by literature and film, and by unscrupulous modern marketers.

They want to buy these products because they believe they are dangerous. They want to believe they are dangerous. So if you give them a drink with a high alcohol percentage, artificially coloured, overpriced, presented and named in a way that fits the myths, a certain proportion of the marketplace wants to try it. Stick it in a cocktail or do shots of the stuff and the uninformed get rotten drunk without getting a true taste of what they paid for. And they'll keep coming back.

Sure, that works. Just like selling headache tablets to kids at rave parties and telling them it's ecstasy.

I call that false advertising. I call that taking advantage of the ignorance of consumers, as well as of governments who don't have clear regulations as to what constitutes absinthe, just like they do for all other forms of alcohol.

Ecstasy may never be legalised, but you can bet if it does, companies won't get away with selling headache tablets.

Steveski, from what I know, your company sells some fine, highly regarded products. I'm looking forward to trying some in the near future. But please, don't become a company that sells a product simply because it makes money. Take the time to make a quality product too. In the long run, that's what will keep your customers coming back for more.

Amen.
Steveski, see my siggy line.

A lot of folks have said things that I agree with, so I won't repeat things. However, a lot of this discussion (and the other thread containing Hiram's excellent post) has similarities with the many discussions with the makers and purveyors of Czechsinthe. Peridot brought up some of the specific provenance issues with so-called Bohemian style absinthe.

And it may well be that the Fischer family made this recette long ago and sold this product to their Austrian brethren. In theory, it should be honestly labeled as Authentic Austrian Absinthe.

I would not be surprised if they made this product because anise based beverages were not common or favored in Austria and they built upon the history and culture of their own people. There's nothing wrong with that. That's to be expected.

But I agree that the consumer who is interested in absinthe because it was the drink of late 19th century, early 20th century France should get something that resembles — in more ways than not — that drink. That's called being honest and authentic.

Dear Hiram,

you have once again stated my exact feelings far more eloquently that I ever could. Thank you.

Dear Steveski,

Thanks for the note about Maine, any headway you can make would be much appreciated. Whereabouts does your wife hail from? I fully intend to buy a bottle of Mata Hari, and THEN make up my mind about it.

Well said.

Legendre & Co. proved how mixable absinthe cocktails were by producing several cocktail recipe booklets, long before the modern Bohemian style fratboy swill flamed it's way into the market.

It's not a matter of being right. You can be right without being insulting. Attack the idea, not the man.



I've read the herb bills for nine absinthes in the Fischer books. I was not made privy to the proportions, but each of them contain the ingredients of proper absinthe including anise, star anise, and fennel. There is some vagueness about the term used for wormwood and whether it refers to absinthium or genipi. Of the four books—from 1881, 1909, 1925 & 1939—I don't know which the recipes came from. I do know that there is a Fischer price list from the late 1930s or early 1940s with "Absynth" on it. As I recall, it was dated by the fact that the prices were in Reichmarks which puts it between 1938 and 1945. I don't know that any of the recipes are in the two pre-ban books, I don't know that the recipes were ever put into production and I don't know that Mata Hari is made according to any of these recipes, and if so, how closely it was followed.

I do know that there isn't enough anise in Mata Hari to cause its louche and that the louche is very likely due to a resin or balsam of some sort, which doesn't appear on any of the herb bills I saw. There is a European tradition of resinous spirits and wines, as fans of Retsina and Mastika will affirm. (of which, I am one)

I think my post in the other thread may be more appropriate over here, but I didn't see this thread when I posted it.

Hey now you.

Sing this corrosion to me.



Er...sorry, couldn't help it.

Many marketers also allude to the famous 18th century drink. Seems a bit dishonest to suggest the drink is the same in one breath and then that it has been completely changed in another.

IMO this is about lazyness and money not about absinthe.

Ya think, maybe?

Great. Now I have that song stuck in my head. Thanks, Trid.

Come on, Eileen...

Well oh hell too many glasses please excuse me.

An attack on the man would have read, "Steveski is an unscrupulous jerkoff." But that's not what he wrote. I read it as commentary on about a class of person who would

Or the kind of person who


I don't know what kind of person Steveski is, but I think Peridot was only making a cautionary statement.

According to Gesetz über den Verkehr mit Absinth. Reichsgesetzbl. I, seite 257, absinthe has been banned in Germany since 1923. In a view of that fact, after Anschluß of Austria which took place on 12 March 1938, absinthe has been banned in Austria as well. Therefore, it is very unlikely for any absinthe to be legally available between the years 1938-1945. There was one absinthe sold under the counter under the nickname of "Pernaud" in Parisian cafes what confirm French historians but nothing else.

Up till 1915, absinthe (notably Pernod fils together with other leading marques) was available in Austro-Hungarian Empire as it was imported by kaiserlich und königlich J.A. Baczewski Distillery from Lwów (Lemberg). Naturally, there were numerous anise-flavoured, wormwood-flavoured and/or containing wormwood spirits/liqueurs what not at that time, but none of them was referred as to "absinthe", "absynth", etc, and it is more than probable that there was no Mata Hari available back then. If it was, we should be able to see at least the empty bottles or vintage labels of that very product from these times (I mean pre-1915).

So let me paraphrase:

Steveski: Absinthe is whatever consumers want it to be.

Everyone else: No, absinthe is absinthe.

Do I have it right?

Yup, that was prezactly the way I interpreted it.

Personally, I think that the Brown Forman's of the world will be looking to hit the US market hard with an Absinthe that is middle of the road in price, and can pass the "authentic Absinthe" test, making it with real herbs, and isn't shy in the anise department (even top notch anise is cheap for BF). Essentially, they want the brand to have street-cred. They'll likely call up a big distillery in France or somewhere in W. Europe and have them make it for them. That's where the raw materials are, after all, as well as the history of the spirit.

They will then look to position it as both a Vermouth or Triple Sec type product (I use the word product on purpose) that will sit in the rails of every TGI Friday's and frat bar is the US, but can also double as an Absinthe Bomb with RedBull. They will work hard to brand the hell out of it, and give perqs to sales reps out the ying-yang.

Or at least that's what I'd do if I were working for Brown Forman. I have a difficult time imagining that this isn't what is in the mail from those guys.

Happily, I don't work for Brown Forman.

Honestly, if it fits the flavor profile I'd rather see that than some of what we've seen so far.

Cheesy marketing is inevitable and so are cheaply made mass-produced products. I can live with that; it's part of the industry. What I don't want to see is a group of powerful marketing machines completely re-defining absinthe because no one did their homework.

The bottom line of the whole non-anise issue is this: it creates the illusion of choice. It tells the lie that there are anise-flavored absinthes and non-anise-flavored absinthes. It gives the impression to the consumer that makers of authentic absinthe elect to use anise out of preference, and that they as consumers can choose an anise or non-anise absinthe.

The choice of the consumer with gin is: do I like juniper or not? If I don't like juniper, gin is not my drink. The choice of the consumer with absinthe is the same, they just don't know it. Don't like it? Don't drink it.

From a marketing perspective this is unacceptable because absinthe is a goldmine. So an illusion is created that says "that's okay, we have a non-anise absinthe over here" so they can pretend they're drinking absinthe and being trendy.

The reality is that the word "absinthe" can be put on the utterest dreck and it will sell. We've seen much proof of this.

Instead of us going to great length showing why a particular brand is not absinthe, I want these brand owners to start telling us why they are. Why are Mata Hari, La Tourment Vert, Green Moon, etc. absinthe?

And if they bear no resemblance to Belle Époque absinthe of France, why do they arrogate the right to use the imagery, names, language and history of that drink? If there is a Bohemian absinthe tradition, find the names, places, brands and historic events associated with it and use those.

Bingo.



Again, bingo. And I love the word "arrogate."

I'm not talking about what's likely or unlikely, I'm talking about an existing catalog that lists absynth priced at 4.67 Reichsmarks.

From Tuivel, the guy who developed Montmartre from recipes in Fischer's books:




Another way to look at it, considering that one of the books cited dates from 1939, is that absinthe, or something sold as such, was revived during this time.

I guess that I haven't had all the garbage absinthes that don't have much/any anise.

I don't see why any company would try and market a non-anise absinthe. Jagermeister has proved, I would think, that an strongly flavored anise drink will do just fine in America.

I like your definition a somewhere in this thread that states that, above all, Absinthe is balanced. I think that this is a much, much more descriptive definition than 'it's an anise based drink'. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting an anise based drink.....ouzo, jager, arak, etc. What makes Absinthe unique among those spirits is the balance between the remaining herbs and the anise. Or at least that's how I look at it. My Absinthe has anise as its largest ingredient, and yet the anise is simply a foundation for the rest of the herbs to bob and weave on....

Maybe absinthe will splinter off like it did in the brewing industry.......subcategories like "Double Anise", or "Double Wormwood", or "Traditional Pontarlier Style" will pop up to help consumers to find styles that they like. Perhaps Bovaresse (sp?), IWSC, or other judgings can help to set categories to help to sort the wheat from the chaff. I would think that the simple word Absinthe is too large a tent.

Or, maybe I'm dead wrong.

Just as long as you avoid the Extra Anise category.

Heh. Well, I was just throwing out names. You get the gist of what I'm getting at I'm sure.

Yes, and you nailed it.


And you'll find Pernod and Sambuca in virtually every liquor store in America and in most bars. Anise does do just fine.

Because there is no further information given or any names (Mata Hari, Montmartre, whatever) added, it can be anything but rather fauxsinthe than genuine absinthe, IMHO, though. The price list offers also German "whisky" which costs less than original "Englisch" whisky printed below. Moreover, there is genuine Arrak and Kirsch (with the suffix-"echt" indicating genuinity). Looking just at the prices, suggests which products are genuine and which are not.

Therefore it would be good to be informed what was that "absynth" from the pricelist and how it relates to any of current offerings, such as Mata Hari (reformulated or not). For that very reason I was asking for either empty bottles or vintage labels as an evidence.