Is there any noticible difference in taste in base alcohols? I know some things are made with grape based alcohol, some with beet/sugarbeet based, some with grain alcohol, etc.

What is the real difference? Most distilled bases I thought mostly tasted the same, hence the use of "base" in defining them?

I know quality makes a difference, but does the source of fermentation change the taste?

Aaron

It's a controversial topic. Some believe that grape spirit is superior, based on the fact that quality pre-ban was made with it. The supposition that the spirit had significant residual wine flavor and aroma has led some modern distillers to use less-than-clean base, resulting in absinthe that smells of wine vinegar.

There is a probability that the reason grape-based spirit was used is because it was perceived as being healthier than beet or grain spirits and that this was an attempt to counter the anti-absinthe lobby's charges.

I'm of the opinion that the spirit, regardless of source, was as clean and neutral as was possible and that therefore, any completely neutral, well-distilled base will make a good, clean-tasting absinthe today.

Others here will strongly disagree, but pending the discovery of a sample of the pre-ban base that was used, it's all conjecture.

On Oxy's site, the distillation process says that
Is this to say that traditionally the French have used beet alcohol, or that they prefer do so now?

That would be modern distillers he's referring to, although it would apply to historical producers as well. Apparently only the better brands used grape based spirits, as it was prohibitively expensive.

As long as the base is of good quality the differences may be negligible and a matter of taste. I find that fruit alcohols have a roundness that grain spirits lack.

A good deal of the distinguishing character of a grape or wine-based spirit is the aroma of ethyl perlargonate (think cognac). The scent of the wine-base/grape-base, even when the base alcohol is high enough in alcohol concentration to macerate with - that is, near neutrality - is something that still manages to stick out. Married with a good, aromatic wormwood, the otherwise obvious scent of the base can meld into something pretty damn dazzling. A spirit of this type can also add a soft, silky finish to a swallow of absinthe.

The issue, as I see it, with modern absintheurs' experience with wine bases is that it is still somewhat limited. In many instances, the artisanal wine-bases are made from store-bought wines (with sulfides that carry) for less-labor intensive ventures, or even from scratch, in a less-than-optimal setting, and can only approximate the experience of using an eaux-de-vie distilled like that of say, Selluel, in Dauphiné, with that characteristic hint of Florentine iris.

Anyone who has sat down with a fine vintage absinthe such as the Pernod Fils, the Berger, the Edouard, etc. can laud the virtues of a quality, non-industrial, base alcohol.

With some alcohols available that are 97.3°, CLEAN, efficient and usable, I think producers of the past, aside from their obvious political motivation for associating their companies with "healthy" spirits of wine, would have eventually capitalized on it. But hey, who's to say once March 16, 1915 came and went?

If my memory serves me right, wasn't there a grape blight when Absinthe became the rage and if that is so, it would seem that the logical recourse would have been to use a beet based spirit or grain in the distilling process, until the grape growers overcame the blight.

In any event, with today's advances in the distilling art, it just seems that a good neutral alcohol can be made with any ingredient that has enough sugar that can be converted into alcohol.IMHO

The maker of a certain absinthe may also deliberately use the taste of the base as an active player in the overall flavour profile. This seems to be the case with Premier Fils, where the taste of the (high quality) wine base is very prominent, while the herbs lend more of a subtle finish.

But sometimes not following the practical pack can be the most renumerative angle to play... who hasn't heard the "quality, without regard to expense" vs. "easy and cheap" card played in the modern absinthe? Pernod Fils also had the distinct advantage of being able to define the absinthe market... they started it all.

I guess that's kind of what I was getting at, whether or not the wine, beet, or grain can bleed through to the finished taste or not? I have never noticed a "taste" per se to anything with an alcohol content that high. So, whether or not grape, beet, or grain alcohol makes a large difference (as opposed to alcohol content being the major player) was something that popped into my head today.

But honestly, and more personally, can any one of you actually taste the difference, or are we talking "in theory" here?

Also, does anyone have a good link to the art of distillation? I'm pretty sure I understand it, but would truly like to know more about exactly how "distillation" is performed in general. Like, the science behind it, what makes a difference in the process, what types of substances companies use, etc....general stuff (not to be confused with any sort of home experimentation).

Aaron

Yes, a grape based spirit will occupy more of the overall flavor profile in a distilled absinthe. It is more forgiving and may hide some subtle flaws in either recipe or process.

If you are using a completely neutral base you better have your ingredients, recipe and process under control, because there is nowhere to hide.

Interesting.
Is there an easy way to tell if the COs we have access to are grape based?

The only time I felt I could really taste the difference in base alcohol was the first time I tried arak. Arak is made with grape base alcohol and I noticed it right away. The only other ingredient in arak is greeen anise, so, that other taste in your arak? It's the base.

All of which are belong to Hiram.

Simple Distillation

Another good excuse to have a glass of arak today! Unfortunately, my palate is far from discerning but I'd love to give it lessons.

Could anyone say with certainty whether a popular CO is made with a particular base? I'd enjoy a side-by-side comparison, just to see if I could taste the difference.

If you can manage (or already have) a sample of the Proto 23 and 27*... the former uses a neutral base, the latter a wine base - though it isn't quite as present as the marc du vin used by the Jades.



*Also has a strong pontica smell, which I really don't mind. I also like the darker green that a coloration dominated by pontica lends to an absinthe.

If you've tried Jade, you've tasted what a grape spirit base (not wine spirit, they're different!) can do to the flavour profile of an absinthe. Jade's base is Marc (France's version of Grappa) which I'm assuming was delivered at at least 85% before the barrel aging which usually mellows Marc, although I'm not positive, this is just a hunch. I really prefer absinthes that have a grape/wine base, if made correctly, as I really like the flavour the grape spirit adds, which is sort of a slightly buttery smoothness that also enhances the way the absinthe feels in your mouth/tongue (mouthfeel).

I remember the Proto 23 but moved too slowly to get the 27. We are still savoring a bottle of Jade. Thanks. This helps me.

Pardon if this question is obvious but does "neutral base" mean grain?

I too prefer a grape alcohol base for the added richness and fruitiness.

Neutral base alcohol

A scholar and a gentleman.

And on that note, what is the difference between grape and wine base? I thought he was talking about the same thing earlier....?

There was something about this in an earlier thread. A wine base will start from just that: wine. But there are other spirits, like grappa and, as Gatsby said, marc, that are made by fermenting the pomace (basically the leftover skins and stems and other dregs that wine makers don't use in wine). Hence, a grape alcohol that isn't a wine alcohol.

right, kinda like all wine comes from grapes but not all the grape goes into wine.

Right.

One can distill chardonnay or one can further distill cognac or brandy.

Pisco.

Resulting in pretty much the same thing, but only if one can make that chardonnay as clean and sweet as the brandy.

The grape-spirit used for pre-ban was not common brandy, which is distilled from wine, it was marc, which as pointed out above is distilled from pomace. It's known as grappa in Italy.

The big difference between the various neutral alcohol bases (marc/grappa, grain, wine, fruit, etc) is the various "contaminants" in the finished products: methyl alcohol, fusel alcohols, and other substances, which are collectively known as congeners. While the majority of these are removed during distillation, there are a few that have a vapour point so close to ethanol that they cannot be fully removed by distillation alone; and even minor fluctuations in distillation temperature or procedure can result in larger amounts of these secondary distillation products in the final product.

Fruits (including grapes) contain pectins, mostly in the skins, which when fermented can result in higher levels of methanol and fusels, as well as other congeners, prior to distillation. Grains create considerably less, but still some. Some can be removed by charcoal filtration, others cannot.

Brandy typically contains the highest level of congeners in the finished product, vodka the least. Part of the characteristic flavour and effect of various acoholic beverages, including supposedly "flavourless" beverages such as vodka, is the result of these congeners.

Thanks for that info, its definitely good!

And on that note, I had some other questions regarding base alcohols...

What makes a substance "fit" for fermentation/distillation? Is it the amount of sugars within it? I mean, take something so obviously different as grapes and corn....both can make base alcohols, but I've never really thought of corn as being fit for distillation??? Also, on the vodka note...it's made with potatos, which I didn't think contained that much sugar anyway?

So, what exactly CAN you distill something from?

There is a difference between sugar and potential sugar

The short answer is that you can distill any mixture of two substances with different boiling points. Gasoline, for example, and many other petroleum products are distilled out of crude oil. You could distill water out of fruit juice if you were so inclined. Or water out of balsamic vinegar, and then save the leftovers in the pot and have a nice balsamic reduction sauce. Good on salmon, I'm led to understand.

Anyone who throws out their absinthe "heads" is a moron... and you can correct for the minute appearance of methanol VERY easily.


There's a few tricks for those as well.

Well, corn and potatoes both have a high carbohydrate content, in the form of starch. The starch must first be converted to sugar by means of enzymatic action before it is possible to ferment it.
(By the way, only a few commercial vodkas are made from potatoes - the most common vodkas are made from grain.)

Almost anything that contains starches or sugars can be fermented.

If it doesn’t move – ferment it!

Even those throwing out the tails are morons. But beta-pork-ribs does also come over earlier in the distillation process, so there are reasons for separating the heads (and reusing them as you do the tails). Just no good ones as far as the taste is concerned.

HA! I think I had a roomate like that once....I should have made Jaradsinthe out of him.

Bourbon is made from corn. And when I say corn, I mean maize.

Following Wild Bill's lead, I had a glass of arak last night. Paying close attention, I believe I was aware of the grape base similar to that in the Jade. Perhaps it was my imagination but there are so few components in the arak (as Wild Bill noted), it's not difficult to pin them down.

Does anyone know the alcohol base for Kübler or CLB?

Beet alcohol, very probably.

Grape based spirits were used here at one time as well.

And if it does - well, you may still give it a try.

Isn't that how you guys over there invented surströmming?

I would be interested to know that the base is for the Ike.

Yeah, I'm very curious now as well.

Maybe we could get a small database of base alcohol to absinthe information? That way we could know better what we're drinking and better understand what, if any, difference base alcohol makes to us...?

Is there any way to accurately do that? Email distillers or something maybe?

Aaron

The absinthes that I know of that use grape based alcohol are Jade, absinthes from the Devoille distillery (VDF, BDF) and Segarra. If the Ike uses grape spirit, it's VERY neutral, but I doubt they use grape spirit.

Hartsmar's site refers to a Swiss clandestine absinthe verte that used a plum base.

Any substance with simple (sugars) or complex carbohydrates can, be fermented ; and, ultimately, be. Some vegetation contains high levels of sugars, and are fermentable as is. Good examples are sugar cane, sweet corn, and most non-citrus fruits. Others contain few sugars, but are rich in complex carbohydrates. These require an additional enzyme, amylase, in order to break down the carbohydrates into simple sugars for fermenting. This is the reason for the "malting" process with barley -- the partial germination triggers the release of large amounts of the amylase enzyme. Barley, however, is unique in it's amylase content, and most grains do not have nearly enough for adequate fermentation.

For complex carbohydrates that do not have a sufficient amount of amylase, a secondary source of the enzyme is generally required; usually fruits. Primitive beer making in places such as Africa or parts of the Indo-Pacific generally involved chewing the grains (millet, sorghum, or various wheat-like grains), in order to utilize the amylase in human saliva. Asian rice-based beverages, such as Japan's Sake, use a mould -- Aspergillus oryzae -- to produce the amylase enzyme. There are a few other sources for the enzyme, including ginger rhizome.

The key issue, in any distillation, however, is the type of alcohol produced, and presence of congeners. Some types of wood can be broken down into alcohol; but almost exclusively toxic methyl alcohol (methanol). So only substances that produce high-purity ethyl alcohol (ethanol) without significant levels of methanol or other congeners that cannot be removed by distillation are considered suitable for distilling potables.

Vodka is historically made from a number of different sources, including wheat, rye, potatoes, pomace, beets, etc.; depending on region and availability. Tradition has limited that, and today only vodka made from wheat, rye, or potatoes is generally accepted as "real" vodka. Russian vodka is traditionally rye or wheat based, with rye considered the superior grain. Polish vodka is traditionally made from potatoes (there is some evidence that vodka originated in Poland). All the rest are what would now be considered "moonshine"; although I believe that there is one commercial brand made from pomace.

Although all starches can be broken down into sugars, there are a few sugars that cannot be fermented. Lactose (milk) sugar is one well-known unfermental sugar; and is commonly used in beermaking, particularly for certain types of sweet stouts.

What makes lactose unfermentable?

Brandy (Cognac and Armanac) is traditionally distilled from white grape wine. Folle Blanche and Uni Blanche are the "best". Red wine has a rougher taste.

Put on your B.S. filter here. Kübler tasted like a red wine spirit to me. This is OPINION not fact. Your mileage may vary.

Grappa and Marc are traditionally distilled from the pomace, grape pulp, left after wine fermentation, Red or White wine. The taste of Grappa varies quite a bit if it comes from Red or White wines.

Just a few opinions

cheers--Ken

Or anything other than wormwood.

Hmmm... um... partial or fully methylated pectins could be made to produce significantly less methanol (via de-esterification) through the inactivation of the enzyme, pectin methylesterase.

Low methanol pomace distillations are not easily realized through simple distillation; although methanol has a lower boiling point than ethanol, it occurs in the later fractions. But bringing the spirit closer to neutrality with a fractional, multi-trayed distillation could alleviate that issue (and most of the aroma).

Point being, I don't thing it's merely an issue of what substances are used in producing ethanol... there are other factors to consider.